Comments on: Official Bias?: CONCACAF and the USMNT http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669 Daily Analysis of Major League Soccer Mon, 15 Mar 2010 08:01:41 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: dave http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669#comment-24438 dave Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:20:32 +0000 http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/?p=6669#comment-24438 Kartik, I realize you are trying to be a "journalist" but your observations are off base. Look at the draw for the 2006 WC if Mexico had to face the three teams the U.S. drew they would have finished 25th. Unfortunately, the U.S. seems to get numerous tough draws, while it is hard to find Mexico get a tough draw. (maybe the current U-17 draw counts but I am not sure how good the Swiss are.) Also, only a handful of teams can get away with a bad draw and still do well in these FIFA events and the U.S. male teams need to avoid the tough draw to do well. The U.S. - Canada game in 2007 was a farce. Donovan got pushed by a Canadian deep in the Canadian zone no foul got called. The offside you talk about "WAS THE CORRECT CALL." Derosario who the initial pass was directed to was offside, if Derosario was not offside then the goal would have "possibly happened", the flag went up and whistle got blown before so called goal was scored. Onstad could have gotten a red card for his challenge on Donovan; afterall was not Onstad the last defender. The 2007 game against Panama featured a Panama hand ball that did not get called. The penalties awarded to the U.S. in the 2007 Gold Cup looked legitimate. In the 2009 Gold Cup two penalties that should have been awarded to the U.S. against Haiti did not get called by a Tico (Costa Rica) referee. A Cuban in Havana got away with a handball in the box. I recall earlier in the Trinidad and Tobago game in September the referee was shy about calling a penalty on a Trindad and Tobago player. Thus, maybe that referee is shy about calling penalties. A goal the U.S. could have might have scored against El Salvador in September got called back. The WCQ in Guatemala is mainly reputation because Guatemala simulates multitude more times than Mexico. The 2007 Gold Cup game against the U.S. involved numerous Guatemalan simulations that got a U.S. player a red card. Thus, maybe that 2007 game and numerous other circumstances, plus the poor lighting of the field by Guatemala came back to bite them. Rico Clark's card against Italy was not right it should have been a yellow. But unfortunately Rico has a poor reputation and South American referees have a tendency to pull out the card way too many times. The referee for that match was from Chile and probably of Italian heritage, thus that match was not fairly called at all. That game should never had a referee of that heritage assigned to it. Basically, Mexico reigns supreme in CONCACAF due to money. Unfortunately, bribery is the way of the game and numerous countries practice it as a way of showing "hospitality." In the U.S. it is called political contributions. The inconsistent referees in CONCACAF lead to numerous poorly called games which makes it tough for even the best teams. The Dynamo might have won against host Arabe Unido, Panama; but numerous cards got dealt by a supposedly "good" referee from Trinidad and Tobago. Fans of both teams wonder what would have happened had that referee not had such a poor game. I remember a U.S. 2009 U20 qualifier against El Salvador which had two red cards dealt by a Nicaraguan referee against the U.S. which look suspicious. Clearly, the referees in CONCACAF range from competent, to biased, to completely incompetent. The U.S. players need to learn at the junior levels how to play with certain referees. Scouting reports on referees need to be done by FIFA to give teams a more fair shot at each event. Here is a question to Kartik, Why does Costa Rica have so many more cards relative to the U.S. and other teams that made it to the final WCQ round? Costa Rica got what is regarded by many as the easiest semifinal round, with a tougher preliminary round. Also, how many cards on average got dealt during CONMEBOL qualifiers. I cannot believe what I saw on a quick glance of CONMEBOL WCQ cards for their rounds of qualifiers Kartik,
I realize you are trying to be a “journalist” but your observations are off base. Look at the draw for the 2006 WC if Mexico had to face the three teams the U.S. drew they would have finished 25th. Unfortunately, the U.S. seems to get numerous tough draws, while it is hard to find Mexico get a tough draw. (maybe the current U-17 draw counts but I am not sure how good the Swiss are.) Also, only a handful of teams can get away with a bad draw and still do well in these FIFA events and the U.S. male teams need to avoid the tough draw to do well.
The U.S. – Canada game in 2007 was a farce. Donovan got pushed by a Canadian deep in the Canadian zone no foul got called. The offside you talk about “WAS THE CORRECT CALL.” Derosario who the initial pass was directed to was offside, if Derosario was not offside then the goal would have “possibly happened”, the flag went up and whistle got blown before so called goal was scored. Onstad could have gotten a red card for his challenge on Donovan; afterall was not Onstad the last defender.
The 2007 game against Panama featured a Panama hand ball that did not get called. The penalties awarded to the U.S. in the 2007 Gold Cup looked legitimate. In the 2009 Gold Cup two penalties that should have been awarded to the U.S. against Haiti did not get called by a Tico (Costa Rica) referee.
A Cuban in Havana got away with a handball in the box. I recall earlier in the Trinidad and Tobago game in September the referee was shy about calling a penalty on a Trindad and Tobago player. Thus, maybe that referee is shy about calling penalties.
A goal the U.S. could have might have scored against El Salvador in September got called back. The WCQ in Guatemala is mainly reputation because Guatemala simulates multitude more times than Mexico. The 2007 Gold Cup game against the U.S. involved numerous Guatemalan simulations that got a U.S. player a red card. Thus, maybe that 2007 game and numerous other circumstances, plus the poor lighting of the field by Guatemala came back to bite them.
Rico Clark’s card against Italy was not right it should have been a yellow. But unfortunately Rico has a poor reputation and South American referees have a tendency to pull out the card way too many times. The referee for that match was from Chile and probably of Italian heritage, thus that match was not fairly called at all. That game should never had a referee of that heritage assigned to it.
Basically, Mexico reigns supreme in CONCACAF due to money. Unfortunately, bribery is the way of the game and numerous countries practice it as a way of showing “hospitality.” In the U.S. it is called political contributions.
The inconsistent referees in CONCACAF lead to numerous poorly called games which makes it tough for even the best teams. The Dynamo might have won against host Arabe Unido, Panama; but numerous cards got dealt by a supposedly “good” referee from Trinidad and Tobago. Fans of both teams wonder what would have happened had that referee not had such a poor game. I remember a U.S. 2009 U20 qualifier against El Salvador which had two red cards dealt by a Nicaraguan referee against the U.S. which look suspicious.
Clearly, the referees in CONCACAF range from competent, to biased, to completely incompetent. The U.S. players need to learn at the junior levels how to play with certain referees. Scouting reports on referees need to be done by FIFA to give teams a more fair shot at each event.
Here is a question to Kartik, Why does Costa Rica have so many more cards relative to the U.S. and other teams that made it to the final WCQ round? Costa Rica got what is regarded by many as the easiest semifinal round, with a tougher preliminary round. Also, how many cards on average got dealt during CONMEBOL qualifiers. I cannot believe what I saw on a quick glance of CONMEBOL WCQ cards for their rounds of qualifiers

]]> By: Jeff http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669#comment-23855 Jeff Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:02:27 +0000 http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/?p=6669#comment-23855 Oh... one thing that could help the US would be to actually take CONMEBOL competitions seriously. Like Mexico has done for over 15 years. South Americans might still call Mexicans Indians, dirty servants, shit, ignorant, you name it, they say it. But these are the jerks. Your level headed soccer fan will admit that Mexican teams are vying to be the best. They will say Brazilian teams are on top, but Mexico can square off for 2nd with Argentine clubs anytime. After each competition (with the exception of the last Libertadores debaucle that almost saw the FMF pull the plug on this adventure as CONMEBOL cheated Chivas and San Luis out of their hard-earned berths in the round of 16 by using swine flu as an excuse, when dengue is at epidemic levels in Argentina and is as dangerous as the flu), Mexican clubs have gotten better and better at playing under unfavorable circumstances and in hostile stadiums (see Boca vs Chivas @ the Bombonera). Being in the top 3 in five out of seven showings at the Copa America testifies to this at the national level. Whatever you have to say, the facts speak for themselves. Its experience that'll do it. And Mexico is getting it while the US treats these competitions like friendlies, only suited for their 2nd string. Your loss. For all those saying that Mexico can't win on Neutral ground, you might be right. All the examples I have used have been on generally unfavorable terms. And they are still succeeding. Once the old prima donnas who used to think they can just waltz into Columbus and win are out of El Tri and replaced by the new breed, you might be singing a different tune. But this cuts both ways: if the US gets its act together and has its clubs in Libertadores; in the Sudamericana; and its national team seriously gunning for top spot in the Copa America, then their players will improve. And hopefully Costa Rica and others some day might too (although I hope Honduras don't, as long as Costly, Pavon, Ruiz and others are still in the team, I want them to fail, and fail terribly)... if they get the invite. Oh… one thing that could help the US would be to actually take CONMEBOL competitions seriously. Like Mexico has done for over 15 years. South Americans might still call Mexicans Indians, dirty servants, shit, ignorant, you name it, they say it. But these are the jerks. Your level headed soccer fan will admit that Mexican teams are vying to be the best. They will say Brazilian teams are on top, but Mexico can square off for 2nd with Argentine clubs anytime. After each competition (with the exception of the last Libertadores debaucle that almost saw the FMF pull the plug on this adventure as CONMEBOL cheated Chivas and San Luis out of their hard-earned berths in the round of 16 by using swine flu as an excuse, when dengue is at epidemic levels in Argentina and is as dangerous as the flu), Mexican clubs have gotten better and better at playing under unfavorable circumstances and in hostile stadiums (see Boca vs Chivas @ the Bombonera). Being in the top 3 in five out of seven showings at the Copa America testifies to this at the national level. Whatever you have to say, the facts speak for themselves.
Its experience that’ll do it. And Mexico is getting it while the US treats these competitions like friendlies, only suited for their 2nd string. Your loss.
For all those saying that Mexico can’t win on Neutral ground, you might be right. All the examples I have used have been on generally unfavorable terms. And they are still succeeding. Once the old prima donnas who used to think they can just waltz into Columbus and win are out of El Tri and replaced by the new breed, you might be singing a different tune. But this cuts both ways: if the US gets its act together and has its clubs in Libertadores; in the Sudamericana; and its national team seriously gunning for top spot in the Copa America, then their players will improve. And hopefully Costa Rica and others some day might too (although I hope Honduras don’t, as long as Costly, Pavon, Ruiz and others are still in the team, I want them to fail, and fail terribly)… if they get the invite.

]]> By: Jeff http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669#comment-23854 Jeff Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:33:55 +0000 http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/?p=6669#comment-23854 Well, I had written a lengthy response. But it got spammed. I guess cause it was too long. So I'll summarize. Mexico's and the US's federations do pull their weight. Neither team gets much help by refs, unless on home field advantage. The CONCACAF refs are terrible and need to be better prepared to not buckle under the pressures of officiating an important match. Until this changes there is not much hope. Why do refs do so well in most European countries? Because they get paid. Plenty. And you have to prove your worth. And yet that still won't eliminate human mistake. Shit happens. I dsagree on Kartik's assessment of Mexico's inability to win the World Cup matches that count. Its not due to officiating, its due to quality. It hasn't been there. Better players means you don't have to rely only on calls going your way. Mexican clubs and El Tri have plenty of experience playing in unfavorable circumstances. See the numerous times they have failed to win the Libertadores. WHy? CONMBEOL would rather have cheating than see a CONCACAF team win in their competitions. Simple as that. See River vs Santos Laguna 'May 04; America vs Sao Caetano; Cruz Azul vs Boca. Horrible officiating. Mex fans know they have to prove their worth with soccer, i.e., Pachuca in the Sudamericana. Score more and play better so the officials can't screw you. Kartik, only you and resentful US and Central American fans see El Tri as a team of divers. Why is it that when they play Paraguay, Uruguay, Brazil, Italy, Argentina, etc, they don't carry this moniker? I'll tell you why. Cause their defenders don't have to resort to cutting down skillfull players. They do at times use some over the top aggression (see Colloccini, '05 Conf Cup, Heinze 06 WC) but since THEY are the bigger soccer powers, they won't get called on it. So? What does this mean? MExico knows its not going into situations knowing its a favorite or being able to exert influence. It just has to win and play great. They know it. Its what has allowed them to beat Brazil in consecutive FIFA cups. Produced three stunning displays against Argentina (until they got clobbered in the last Copa America). 4-3 against Germany. IN Germany. 6-0 against Paraguay. 3-1 against Uruguay. When they are gunning on all cylinders they are a formidable opponent, even though they might lack some of the height, skill and technique of the greats. If this were not true they wouldn't return consistently good results against the top teams in competitive matches. I know what you're thinking. 2-0. 2002. OK, I do agree they didn't respect the US that game. They didn't. And they need to wake up to the fact that no team can be disrespected. Ever. But their players are getting better. The youth's are doing well. So hopefully in time, the overall skill will be their to tip the balance. And some luck never hurts. Well, I had written a lengthy response. But it got spammed. I guess cause it was too long.
So I’ll summarize. Mexico’s and the US’s federations do pull their weight. Neither team gets much help by refs, unless on home field advantage. The CONCACAF refs are terrible and need to be better prepared to not buckle under the pressures of officiating an important match. Until this changes there is not much hope. Why do refs do so well in most European countries? Because they get paid. Plenty. And you have to prove your worth. And yet that still won’t eliminate human mistake. Shit happens.
I dsagree on Kartik’s assessment of Mexico’s inability to win the World Cup matches that count. Its not due to officiating, its due to quality. It hasn’t been there. Better players means you don’t have to rely only on calls going your way.
Mexican clubs and El Tri have plenty of experience playing in unfavorable circumstances. See the numerous times they have failed to win the Libertadores. WHy? CONMBEOL would rather have cheating than see a CONCACAF team win in their competitions. Simple as that. See River vs Santos Laguna ‘May 04; America vs Sao Caetano; Cruz Azul vs Boca. Horrible officiating. Mex fans know they have to prove their worth with soccer, i.e., Pachuca in the Sudamericana. Score more and play better so the officials can’t screw you.
Kartik, only you and resentful US and Central American fans see El Tri as a team of divers. Why is it that when they play Paraguay, Uruguay, Brazil, Italy, Argentina, etc, they don’t carry this moniker? I’ll tell you why. Cause their defenders don’t have to resort to cutting down skillfull players. They do at times use some over the top aggression (see Colloccini, ‘05 Conf Cup, Heinze 06 WC) but since THEY are the bigger soccer powers, they won’t get called on it. So? What does this mean? MExico knows its not going into situations knowing its a favorite or being able to exert influence. It just has to win and play great. They know it. Its what has allowed them to beat Brazil in consecutive FIFA cups. Produced three stunning displays against Argentina (until they got clobbered in the last Copa America). 4-3 against Germany. IN Germany. 6-0 against Paraguay. 3-1 against Uruguay. When they are gunning on all cylinders they are a formidable opponent, even though they might lack some of the height, skill and technique of the greats. If this were not true they wouldn’t return consistently good results against the top teams in competitive matches. I know what you’re thinking. 2-0. 2002. OK, I do agree they didn’t respect the US that game. They didn’t. And they need to wake up to the fact that no team can be disrespected. Ever. But their players are getting better. The youth’s are doing well. So hopefully in time, the overall skill will be their to tip the balance. And some luck never hurts.

]]> By: Jeff http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669#comment-23853 Jeff Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:13:50 +0000 http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/?p=6669#comment-23853 Comment Comment

]]> By: Cruz Azul Fan http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669#comment-23796 Cruz Azul Fan Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:19:22 +0000 http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/?p=6669#comment-23796 ur points r on da mark, but after ur rant against mexico based on culture and racism, simply claiming mistake by refs or bias is to blame is not fair. americans do the same cheating thing u accuse mexicans of. altidore in particular is a diver. how did he draw that pk vs italy? yes blanco is a disgrace with diving but he is ten times the player of altidore and i agree r fans do not like the argentine player or coach that come to mexico, but usa is the same. those in glass houses should not throw stones. maybe some of ur defenders typical yanks should read this. u have not made up for that post but show u are at least still thinking a little. ur points r on da mark, but after ur rant against mexico based on culture and racism, simply claiming mistake by refs or bias is to blame is not fair. americans do the same cheating thing u accuse mexicans of. altidore in particular is a diver. how did he draw that pk vs italy? yes blanco is a disgrace with diving but he is ten times the player of altidore and i agree r fans do not like the argentine player or coach that come to mexico, but usa is the same. those in glass houses should not throw stones. maybe some of ur defenders typical yanks should read this.

u have not made up for that post but show u are at least still thinking a little.

]]> By: todd http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669#comment-23779 todd Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:48:44 +0000 http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/?p=6669#comment-23779 can we please start talking about the MLS again. can we please start talking about the MLS again.

]]> By: Andy http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669#comment-23739 Andy Sat, 17 Oct 2009 22:47:55 +0000 http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/?p=6669#comment-23739 Sorry I hit submit by mistake. My point was these tournaments are all about money and as much as I hate to admit it, FIFA and the various federations have zero credibility. When it comes down to it, $ over fair play, and until something changes it will always be that way. I love the beautiful game, but I'm a realist not a cultist. Sorry I hit submit by mistake. My point was these tournaments are all about money and as much as I hate to admit it, FIFA and the various federations have zero credibility. When it comes down to it, $ over fair play, and until something changes it will always be that way. I love the beautiful game, but I’m a realist not a cultist.

]]> By: Andy http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669#comment-23738 Andy Sat, 17 Oct 2009 22:43:33 +0000 http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/?p=6669#comment-23738 I somewhat agree with your analysis Kartik, and I've seen us get some crazy calls, but I'm not sure the U.S. and Mexico are comparable. If our guys ever start whining and diving like a certain team, or our fans start throwing rocks at buses and pulling fire alarms, or our coaches start kicking players, or if our federation whines every other game about the official to get a more easily intimidated person in... well my second team Poland will become my first team. We get favorable calls, true, but I don't EXPECT or DEMAND that we get them, and I'm embarrassed when it happens. One thing I disagree with is the assumption Concacaf refs make our nats play undisciplined somehow, when in reality when you watch youth and pro games in America you'll see where it comes from. Ricardo Clark, for example, didn't learn to tackle stupidly from his nats duty, he's been allowed to get away with it by OUR federation. Discipline isn't learned or forgotten for a few weeks national team duty each year, and our players don't need that excuse. They need to be taught discipline, and also the difference between hard effort and stupid thuggery, at an early age so that by the time they get to the USMNT its instinctual. The main complaint I have is when we play teams from Europe, the games aren't called evenly either. I understand that Clark had a red card in the Confed Cup. Where was the red card for the Italian who threw Jozy over his back? It was more dangerous than Clark's stupid stupid stupid half challenge. So you see, we get the opposite treatment so the big teams advance when we play in tournaments against bigger teams than us. I somewhat agree with your analysis Kartik, and I’ve seen us get some crazy calls, but I’m not sure the U.S. and Mexico are comparable. If our guys ever start whining and diving like a certain team, or our fans start throwing rocks at buses and pulling fire alarms, or our coaches start kicking players, or if our federation whines every other game about the official to get a more easily intimidated person in… well my second team Poland will become my first team. We get favorable calls, true, but I don’t EXPECT or DEMAND that we get them, and I’m embarrassed when it happens.

One thing I disagree with is the assumption Concacaf refs make our nats play undisciplined somehow, when in reality when you watch youth and pro games in America you’ll see where it comes from. Ricardo Clark, for example, didn’t learn to tackle stupidly from his nats duty, he’s been allowed to get away with it by OUR federation. Discipline isn’t learned or forgotten for a few weeks national team duty each year, and our players don’t need that excuse. They need to be taught discipline, and also the difference between hard effort and stupid thuggery, at an early age so that by the time they get to the USMNT its instinctual.

The main complaint I have is when we play teams from Europe, the games aren’t called evenly either. I understand that Clark had a red card in the Confed Cup. Where was the red card for the Italian who threw Jozy over his back? It was more dangerous than Clark’s stupid stupid stupid half challenge. So you see, we get the opposite treatment so the big teams advance when we play in tournaments against bigger teams than us.

]]> By: Raul http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669#comment-23733 Raul Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:17:21 +0000 http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/?p=6669#comment-23733 Kartik, That's an interesting conspiracy theory. There is a museum here that has room to display it on the 6th floor. :) So, it guess by this theory, the biggest problem in CONCACAF is the officiating. And to that end, the biggest problem with the officiating itself is not having to conducta game full dives and handballs, but the refs are given a directive behind closed doors to make sure the US and Mexico advance at all costs. Entertaining. Kartik,
That’s an interesting conspiracy theory. There is a museum here that has room to display it on the 6th floor. :) So, it guess by this theory, the biggest problem in CONCACAF is the officiating. And to that end, the biggest problem with the officiating itself is not having to conducta game full dives and handballs, but the refs are given a directive behind closed doors to make sure the US and Mexico advance at all costs. Entertaining.

]]> By: Lars http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/official-bias-concacaf-and-the-usmnt/6669#comment-23730 Lars Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:41:29 +0000 http://www.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/?p=6669#comment-23730 And I highly doubt you've watched Canada play enough to be able to judge their talent. Scorelines don't tell the whole story. And I highly doubt you’ve watched Canada play enough to be able to judge their talent. Scorelines don’t tell the whole story.

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